Curse

Winx.ZN · Jul 10, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

After reading 5 pages of this (the 10th thread on Touch Rangers I think) I like to see the overwhelming majority of opinion compared to what it was on thread one.
Most people dont think it deserves a nerf anymore, we thought, oh wait... thats how we counter it. I think the people that keep repeating this thread over and over are vaguely new to the Toucher phenomenon and are just letting off steam like a bunch of us did in Thread #1.
The logic of the skills annoys me (touching, biting, gazing while blind) but the build itself doesnt.
If I see a team of 4 coming towards us in AB and I spot : (average team)
R/N
Mo/Me
Me/E
N/Me or Mo
Generally the last we worry about is the R/N. If there are 3-4 and for some reason we dont have a way to slow 2 of them, then we retreat. That spiker is gonna really hurt, killing the monk so we can kill the spiker is going to make it much easier, if that MM has minions, id rather leave them masterless before I worry about R/N. Slowdown spells are something most teams I go with take anyway. Theres nothing better than stopping kiting. Good thing about that is it has the added benefit of canceling out any build that requires you to get up close. Not just touchers.
Those of you who think they need a nerf go take a stroll in the pvp section. Youll find a wide variety of builds that will successfully stop many people with the added benefit of stopping R/Ns too. I see less touchers every AB I do now a days. I don't party with Touchers because I can think of many more useful builds Id rather take along. Guildie wanted to make one, I said, fine make one, just wont party with you while you run it. What that did was he never plays it :P Any decent run squad will mow over most pug squads anyway. An organized 4 Toucher build was gonna kill you just as fast in a pug as an organized (add build name here) build would.

Mera Regila · Jul 10, 2006, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by RTSFirebat

There is nothing wrong with Touch Rangers, they don't need nerfing. My tocuhie has been beaten down in PvP plenty of times. Long as the player knows what they are doing.

Learn, adapt and defend.

I know it's easy for exp players to kill touch ranger, what about newbs tho. Newbs that use touch have an unfair chance over newbs that use every other build. I think im quoting this from someone, someone definately said this.

Bottom line: I would LOVE to see the look on the greedy noob faces of most of the touch ranger population when their build is all but worthless if their touches turn to spells. Touch Rangers don't NEED nerfing, but I'd love to see one.

So many touch rangers running around randoms like they're Rank 10 Illustrious Heroes that know pretty much everythign about PvP when they really know next to nothing except the pathetic worthless build they looked up on the internet. I've had touches on my team as a boon prot, said i sucked because i couldn't ward off two shock warriors who had me constantly knocked down when touch didn't lift a finger to help. This kind of arrogance from complete noobs, makes me so angry.

Mera Regila · Jul 10, 2006, 12:04 PM // 12:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winx.ZN

After reading 5 pages of this (the 10th thread on Touch Rangers I think) I like to see the overwhelming majority of opinion compared to what it was on thread one.
Most people dont think it deserves a nerf anymore, we thought, oh wait... thats how we counter it. I think the people that keep repeating this thread over and over are vaguely new to the Toucher phenomenon and are just letting off steam like a bunch of us did in Thread #1.
The logic of the skills annoys me (touching, biting, gazing while blind) but the build itself doesnt.
If I see a team of 4 coming towards us in AB and I spot : (average team)
R/N
Mo/Me
Me/E
N/Me or Mo
Generally the last we worry about is the R/N. If there are 3-4 and for some reason we dont have a way to slow 2 of them, then we retreat. That spiker is gonna really hurt, killing the monk so we can kill the spiker is going to make it much easier, if that MM has minions, id rather leave them masterless before I worry about R/N. Slowdown spells are something most teams I go with take anyway. Theres nothing better than stopping kiting. Good thing about that is it has the added benefit of canceling out any build that requires you to get up close. Not just touchers.
Those of you who think they need a nerf go take a stroll in the pvp section. Youll find a wide variety of builds that will successfully stop many people with the added benefit of stopping R/Ns too. I see less touchers every AB I do now a days. I don't party with Touchers because I can think of many more useful builds Id rather take along. Guildie wanted to make one, I said, fine make one, just wont party with you while you run it. What that did was he never plays it :P Any decent run squad will mow over most pug squads anyway. An organized 4 Toucher build was gonna kill you just as fast in a pug as an organized (add build name here) build would.

Hard to argue with those solid facts. Impeccable logic used on your part. I agree with everything there. One thing from me you must understand however.

It's not the touchers' builds I heartily dislike, it's the people that play them. The noobs running around RA like they're full-fledged experts of the game, it sickens me.

pkodyssey · Jul 10, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

Hmmmm. Nothing is more fun than the stalemate of a touch ranger and a plague touch warrior.

My (Bow)ranger makes touch rangers... disappear!

RTSFirebat · Jul 10, 2006, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

I know it's easy for exp players to kill touch ranger, what about newbs tho. Newbs that use touch have an unfair chance over newbs that use every other build. I think im quoting this from someone, someone definately said this.

As you sdaid yourself no need for a nerf. You forget that newbies get beaten by EVERYTHING, and at the end of the day if they wish to use a build that provides them with some wins, then so be it.

That's why builds exist, to be used! By anyone, exp, newbie or whatever.

Games have newbs who beat other newbs who are beaten by exp players. It's the way it's always been, even before the birth of the Touch Ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pkodyssey

Hmmmm. Nothing is more fun than the stalemate of a touch ranger and a plague touch warrior.

My (Bow)ranger makes touch rangers... disappear!

Cripshot Condition Ranger does wonders against Touchies.

Hengis · Jul 10, 2006, 12:45 PM // 12:45

I note from the original post that the OP states he is a W/Mo.

I think that part of the nerf crying is because W/Mo's are pretty used to being able to stand up fairly well against a wide variety of builds.

However, a W/Mo who tries the usual run in/tank/hit tactics on a Touch Ranger will be a dead W/Mo in about 15 seconds. This I am sure is a bit of a culture shock especially to newer players to discover that there is a relatively simple build that will kill them over and over again.

Also, almost every other class is used to coming up against a variety of builds that will kill them easily. You cannot make a build that can counter every possible variation you will come up against, so you just get used to dying when you meet that nemesis build that you know is going to kill you fast.

I also suspect that newer W/Mos think that if they are not up the front tanking and hitting, then the target will not be killed. For Touch Rangers the non-melee classes are a actually the ones that do the killing best.

My only real complaint about Touch Rangers is not really a complaint against Touch Rangers at all. What really annoys me is when my N/Me casts imagined burden and a whole bunch of degen hexes on a Toucher and leaves them alone to die, only for someone to run up and start hitting them only to have the Toucher spam their vampiric skills and get back all the health that has been degened from them.

Lastly, I know that this post is making some generalisations - I honestly do know that there are plenty of Warriors who know how to play against Touchers. It's the ones who don't know how to that are the ones calling for the nerf bat.

JodoKast · Jul 10, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

It is true that there are plenty of ways to avoid touch rangers. Kiting, snares and degen for the kill are examples.

However there is one big point that hasn't been mentionned enough on this thread : we are talking about Alliance Battle.

In Alliance Battle, the goal of the game is to capture and hold points, not to wipe out the ennemy team by kiting around them and degen them to death.

The NPCs guarding the control points do NOT kite away from touch rangers. As such, Touch Rangers are a very self sufficient and effective build to take over points in AB, another reason why you see a lot of them.

Shendaar · Jul 10, 2006, 01:04 PM // 13:04

I think both Vamp Touch skills should be changed to Spells and their energy cost should be reduced to 10. This would prevent Expertise from working, make both skills more counterable and also make them cost effective on a necro primary.

RTSFirebat · Jul 10, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by JodoKast

It is true that there are plenty of ways to avoid touch rangers. Kiting, snares and degen for the kill are examples.

However there is one big point that hasn't been mentionned enough on this thread : we are talking about Alliance Battle.

In Alliance Battle, the goal of the game is to capture and hold points, not to wipe out the ennemy team by kiting around them and degen them to death.

The NPCs guarding the control points do NOT kite away from touch rangers. As such, Touch Rangers are a very self sufficient and effective build to take over points in AB, another reason why you see a lot of them.

Yep, you've summed it up perfectly here.

From my point-of-view, Touch Rangers don't need nerfing, the Alliance Battle NPCs need buffering.

I will say that at the moment a single Touch Ranger can solo a whole bunch of NPCs in Alliance Battles, but the again so can most builds.

The NPCs in Alliance Battles are weak and they are the ones who are in need of a buff. The only ones which are strong are the Elementalists who using Lighting Spike.

Caleb · Jul 10, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by zakaria
We are not forced to bind towards certain build that some ppl see it cool to run it.All of you were talking about single touch ranger...let's discuss about countering half dozen of them in AB then come back to talk with me if it's easy and fun to counter them or not.

Well I absolutely hate running into a group of half a dozen monks in AB, so can we please nerf those pesky "divine favor" and "healing" attribute lines to make it easier for me to counter in ABs?

And I often face several warriors at once in ABs, so please swing your nerf bat at hammers/swords/axes too! Maybe make all the weapon attributes max out at level 7, so they do less damage.

I refuse to counter builds other people use, so I demand the devs nerf every build that is not covered in my current 8 skills to counter?!?!

/sarcasm

Skuld · Jul 10, 2006, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

I think both Vamp Touch skills should be changed to Spells and their energy cost should be reduced to 10. This would prevent Expertise from working, make both skills more counterable and also make them cost effective on a necro primary.

Maybe you missed the many other times this has been mentioned - they used to be spells and aint gonna get put back.

Silent Kitty · Jul 10, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caleb The Pontiff

I refuse to counter builds other people use, so I demand the devs nerf every build that is not covered in my current 8 skills to counter?!?!

Every time when I want to heal someone in my party, those pesky mesmer and ranger interrupts/counters it. Please Anet, nerf them. They are mean!

Lets Get to Healing · Jul 10, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

Bet as much as you like. I'm not going to argue with foolish assumptions, you can assume you're better all you like. I couldn't care less. That's the last one of your posts I think I'm going to answer.

Hmm, speaking of foolish assumptioms, read this . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mera Regila

For those saying most Touch Rangers are SKILLED of all things, i dunno where your delusions come from. The Touch Ranger Build requires absolutely no skill at all , absolutely mindless spamming. Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite, get a condition, Plague Touch, war or ranger shows up, Throw Dirt, energy low, OoB, teammate dead, res signet. WAY MORE COMPLICATED than the average build, especially given that you repeat this cycle OVER AND OVER for the whole game.

roboky · Jul 10, 2006, 04:05 PM // 16:05

I see alot of people say cripple the touchers, but that's kind of hard for a ranger when they have lots of other targets to choose from other than you, plague tough, and whirling defenses (and the other assorted dodge skills), and they recover hp very everytime they hit you. Also what's worse, if you are able to cripple one, people are forming all toucher parties now in Alliance battles.

Caleb · Jul 10, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silent Kitty

Every time when I want to heal someone in my party, those pesky mesmer and ranger interrupts/counters it. Please Anet, nerf them. They are mean!

Hehe Kitty, that would have been a good addition to my list!

Please nerf ritualists too, I don't like all those spirits creeping me out.

Bale_Shadowscar · Jul 10, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Psychic_Distraction

Theus · Jul 10, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by roboky

I see alot of people say cripple the touchers, but that's kind of hard for a ranger when they have lots of other targets to choose from other than you, plague tough, and whirling defenses (and the other assorted dodge skills), and they recover hp very everytime they hit you. Also what's worse, if you are able to cripple one, people are forming all toucher parties now in Alliance battles.

Crippling Shot cant be blocked or evaded.Your post fails.

LoKi Foxfire · Jul 10, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theus

Crippling Shot cant be blocked or evaded.Your post fails.

Too bad whatever effectiveness this may have in a group whenever you have another PUG warrior come up and try to melee a touch ranger only to get plague touched. :]

TwinRaven · Jul 10, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I was going to try to ignore this thread, especially since it seems in the wrong section to me...shouldn't it be in "BUILDS" ? Anyway, since I have added my opinion in some 4-5 other threads reguarding the touch ranger and they keep popping up [it's called the search button] and when the great button fails...READ a couple threads...THEY ARE NOT NOT NOT hard to find....Here's my last reply to the Nerf the Ranger boobery:

Quote:

yet another NERF the touchie thread...*sighs*...please use search, read and/or contribute to other threads...oh, great moderators hear my plea "please merge these threads" as they are popping up like mushrooms in a dungheap.

I play a touchie and have never heard SO many complaints about it until the Vampiric Touch cloned skill "Vampiric Bite"...even with this new skill there is the same balance as before...more damage occurs quicker-yes, but the energy management is trickier bescause the cost is greater than Touch of Agony (the skill most commonly used in previous builds) Using the cloned skill...you have to watch the energy, especially with a good mesmer around.

...I've been playing the build for months and over a year if you include beta characters...there is nothing wrong with it...it can and IS often countered...I have met defeat at the hands of many character classes...mesmers, warriors, necromancers, elementalists have ALL defeated me with multiple conditions, kiting, interrups and skill disabling...please think beyond your current mode of playing, use some imagination and develope some simple tactics before crying "NERF"..or, hey, here's a thought...try some TEAMWORK!!! One-on-one is where you are weak with a touchie...gang up on them and they go down faster...As a touchie I hate a knock-down build and drain build in combination...ugh...watermagic is SO underused, but slow me down so I can't get to you....cripple me, knock me down and run away from me while someone drains my health or throws conditions at me...

I can't beleive so many people fussing about this...think of it as a game of "Tag"...the trick is not to get touched...How do you accomplish this? RUN AWAY! Kiting, kiting, kiting...try it for Dwayna's sake...sheesh SO simple...SO many people have figured this out already...leave my build alone.

EDIT: Please look here for suggested counters for touch rangers...took me 2 minutes to find it: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/R/N_Touch_Ranger

Here's the previous response to the previous thread:

Quote:

I've been playing a touchie since I deleted my first ranger Twin Raven...a nice little R/E that seemed fun at the time. My "new" ranger/nec is a wee bit over nine months old and I've been snatching life away from folks since I started it. Over time I've rearranged skills until I found just the right combo. With the addition of Vampiric Bite, it's true I can snatch away an extra 15 health every 2 seconds, but it costs me an extra 3 energy...a fair trade...no more powerful than before.

Problem is...this little build of mine (not taking credit, I play my own variation though) has come under fire. I've defended it and offered strategies to beat it for weeks...here again, though is yet another thread crying nerf: the main whining coming from wariors because they stand there swinging away at air never ONCE thinking about using the survival instincts God gave an ant :RUN AWAY!!!!

SERIOUSLY: read through Gladiator and use the search...you'll find all kinds of info and strategy...QUIT whining "nerf it" You folks who can't think around a build piss me off...first my necro gets the nerf-bat, now you wanna do the same to my ranger...the only classes I play with any joy. Can't get into a group to save my life for months when the game started...I paid my freakin' dues and now someone wants to nerf it because lo and behold, what I have been doing for 3/4 of the time I've played (not including beta) is too hard for some brainless tank to counter...try putting some defensive strategy into play, this isn't whack-a-mole!

I respect the opinions of players who are willing to debate and offer insight, but dropping in " yeah make em spells...only solution" is obviously the same dipstick, follow the leader, lemming-like behavior that makes people drive SUVs as commuter cars because they want to BELONG to something...the world has enough yes-men, so please add something unique and thoughtful to the thread or STHU!

JR- You said it...don't suck and you can beat a touchie.

Nine months of playing one and I can tell you what kills em off...energy denial, diversion (not not NOT NOT NOOOOOOTTTTTT...blackout...god I HATE when people don't read the thread and chime in with what has already been mentioned as worthless)....multiple conditions and heavy degen on top of diversion and e-denial will make them drop...stay out of range....cripple and run after a knock-down...kiting help (even dumbass warriors should know when to kite...NOT whine nerf when they are to damned stupid to pull their ass outta the fire)...multiple knockdowns are hard to deal with as well.<please note: dumbass warriors are a classification of warrior...not all warriors...there IS a disticntion>

EVERY build has a counter build, even touchies. I've had my ass dropped unexpectedly and expectedly by every profession...sometimes in combinations ( a mesmer and warrior together = ouchie). A warrior can't get mad if there is a build that can kill them...a tanker should not be the ONLY build that can withstand a beating.

Touch rangers are unique, but limited and run out of energy after one victim or so (even with good gear)...after one member of your party drops, gang up on the touchie...almost always gets me at the end of my mana supply and I have to run (ESCAPE is my prefered...not storm chaser or dodge...obviously mentioned by people who don't play a touchie or play a lame one IMO). Facing more than one? CALL TARGETS and bring res sigs...drop them often enough and the team with the most res wins!!!

Pardon the rant...just play the freakin' game and LEARN to deal with the builds as they come along...remember when you were scared of air-spikers?*mocking trembles* Consider who you attack in the game...the soft targets right? As it happens, warriors are soft targets for the touchie...learn to deal with it...tankers are NOT always at the top of the foodchain...they did away with that term...it's called the food web...it's a balance.

I can think of all the times an air-spiker, interrupt ranger or mesmer killed off my necro...I didn't bitch or cry nerf once...I bit my lip, typed "gg" and rethought my build...for all you "nerf" whiners...I suggest you do the same.

There are a couple more and a pretty good build for Touch Ranger posted here by me, found without the use of the search button and already debated to death in the BUILDS section...can we all get over it already and quit the whining? *flabbergasted kuffuffalation*

Jetdoc · Jul 10, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

Instead of nerfing Touch Rangers which don't need to be nerfed and should not be nerfed, I think Anet should nerf bad players instead. Keep all the bad players stuck in the Zaishen Missions until they learn enough about the game to not call for illegitmate nerfings against anything they are not smart enough to try countering.

I know that this was said a bit tounge in cheek, but it actually brings up a nice solution...

Modify the Zaishen Missions to include a group of Touch Rangers. Just like people learned the weaknesses of the IWAY, ViM Trapper, IW and Obsidian Flame builds by constantly practicing against them in this nice setting, the Touch Ranger could be substantially weakened by including them in this repeatable setting as well.